Posted by Member mantice on 1/18/13 06:30 AM
#1
Posts: 75
Hey guys I haven't played my demon hunter in a while (pre1.03). I'm looking to invest some gold into it.
Now I know Legacy Nats would be cool for the unlimited smoke screen. I think this is what i want my build to revolve around. Any info on this would be great because I'm lacking knowledge in the DH department. •What stats should i be looking for on the set ? •Do i need resists and life seeing how i should be safe most of the time? •What about the rest of the gear that isn't part of the set? I want to spend a decent amount on this character im looking to budget around 50m maybe more. I would like to do a mix of PVP and some high monster power. Not farming just for fun. I have my WD for farming. I don't know of many builds for DH besides this Nats. •Any other suggestions of builds i may like? •Strafe may be fun. Thanks for any feedback :) |
DH Advice
Posted by Member ecocd on 1/18/13 09:10 AM
#2
Posts: 1059
I would say read through the "newbie DH" thread. You'll find the answer to a lot of your questions in there regarding PvM. I think Grenade Tank is the preferred build for high MP farming which is going to require at least a few different pieces of gear than PvP.
Early on, there seems to be a great preference for legacy Nat's in PvP and the prices on good legacy Nat's gear has shot up. Sounds like CC/CD are absolutely vital. I don't know if 2H Xbow or 1H Xbow is better. Grenade Tank is IAS, CC, CD, AR, Vit with an eye towards and high freeze Azurewrath & Shield or 1H XBow and Shield/Dead Man's Legacy Quiver on preference. 2-piece modern Nat's gear is minimum (legacy gear might work) and 4-piece Modern Nat's gear is ideal (+20 Disc is arguably better than +2 Disc / sec). If nothing else, quality Legacy Nat's Gear is probably a good investment even with prices a bit high right now. There will never be another Legacy Nat's Gear drop again so they'll retain value as long as people are playing Diablo 3. |
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 1/27/13 09:41 PM
#3
Posts: 413
I would have to disagree that +20 discipline is better than +2 discipline/sec; I believe @douvinsky explained it quite well mathematically in this thread. But the main reasoning I'll go ahead and cut & paste here: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) Big Pool of Discipline (say 70, with 1 natural regen) VS Small Pool of Discipline (say 30, with 1 natural regen + 2 from legacy) In longer (or careless) fights when the discipline pool has been depleting fast, the speed of recovering discipline becomes more important. Over 30 seconds it is 100 (70 + 1*30) vs 120 (30 + 3*30), over 60 seconds it becomes 130 (70 + 1*60) vs 210 (30 + 3*60), i.e. over 60 seconds there are more disciplines to be used. Obviously in a short fight if only 70 discipline is enough to do the job, Legacy Nat is a waste. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So the longer a particular fight lasts, such as in those long extended fights w/ Ubers on high MP levels, the more the fast discipline regeneration really shines through. Besides, if you really need a larger discipline pool, there are many quivers and bows that come with +10 discipline, or even rings (Stone of Jordan immediately comes to mind). You could easily get the best of both worlds (i.e., large discipline pool & faster discipline regeneration), assuming you have the bank roll to do it... ;-) Of course, if all of your fights tend to be short, then stick with the new Natalya's set, which overall has much better base stat bonuses. Also, if you're on a budget, the new set is infinitely cheaper than the Legacy set--cause as you yourself stated, there will "never be another Legacy Nat's Gear drop again"... |
Posted by Member ecocd on 1/28/13 04:30 AM
#4
Posts: 1059
@eastdragon42 I would still argue that for this build in particular, focus on douvinsky's last line "Obviously in a short fight if only 70 discipline is enough to do the job, Legacy Nat is a waste." With sufficient attack speed, you'll be generating far more than 2 Discipline per second, anyway. You don't run out, if you start with enough. You simply don't need that 2 Discipline / second bonus. I've been able to run with only 48 and do fine which also means you can run with a socketed Dex Andariel's Visage or which is pretty much BiS for this build.
What douvinsky's calculations didn't take into account is when you're at full Discipline. At full Discipline, Nat's Legacy Set is doing absolutely nothing for you. The Modern Nat's Legacy Set leaves you with +20 Discipline when you're at full discipline. If you want an alternate calculation, track your Average Discipline Available over time and you're going to find that with this build, you're going to have a higher ADA with Nat's Modern Set than Nat's Legacy set. You also have to take into account the stats you can get affordably on the modern vs. Legacy set. If you're absolutely made of money, then you can pick up a nice set of Legacy Nat's gear. First off, mods on the Legacy set are capped at affix level 62, because of the way stats were generated at the time. Modern Nat's sets aren't capped so you get better random affixes. Right now, the cheapest +11% Grenades damage on a Natalya's Shadow is 9 million and there are only 4 for sale. You can get better stats and +14% Grenades damage for 65k right now on a Nat's Embrace. You can get 8 Max Discipline on a 14% Grenades cloak for 600k which is plenty good for taking on at least MP7. Heck, you can even pick up a 3% CC Nat's Sight helm for only 3.5 million now. The difference in stats a mere mortal can get on a modern Nat's Set are going to far, far outweigh the Discipline regen in PvE. Nat's Legacy Set makes sense for PvP now that everyone uses infinite Smoke Screen and Blizzard has pretty much stated, they have no intention over the short time to balance PvP in any way other than reducing damage so it will pretty much always be the auto-win gear for 1-on-1 dueling. In PvE, you're going to be better off with a Nat's Modern Set. |
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 1/28/13 05:48 AM
#5
Posts: 413
Are you confusing Discipline regeneration with Hatred regeneration? I don't see what attack speed has to do with "generating far more than 2 Discipline per second, anyway"... unless you're using the Night Stalker passive to restore it, but even then, that's more reliant on having a high Critical Hit chance as opposed to a better IAS... Regardless, I think you, Douvinsky, and I are actually all in complete agreement on most points. That is: 1) Legacy Nats is a *LOT* more expensive to purchase than Modern Nats (due to finite vs infinite supply); 2) Modern Nats base stats are *MUCH* better than Legacy Nats base stats (due to iLvl63 vs iLvl62); 3) In short fights, having faster Discipline regeneration doesn't really matter (since a short fight probably won't even use up the base 30 Discipline a DH has anyway). The only thing I was debating was that IMHO, the old legacy set's 4-piece bonus of +2 Discipline / second is superior to the Modern set's +20 Discipline, especially in extended fights. The longer a fight lasts, the more one notices just how awesome it is to have "near infinite" discipline. I myself am a fairly big Discipline hog, often standing and tanking w/ Gloom while liberally using Smoke Screen to avoid beams of Arcane damage (for example), and I notice I survive a lot better w/ the faster Discipline regeneration than I do with a larger base pool of Discipline, as with the later, very often I'll run out of Discipline & die even if my base pool was very big to begin with. Then again, that could just be my poor play style requiring the faster Discipline regeneration rate... :-) But back on topic: @mantice, saying "Legacy Nats would be cool for the unlimited smoke screen. I think this is what i want my build to revolve around." and "...im looking to budget around 50m..." is kind of an oxymoron in that the Legacy Natalya's Mark ring alone is going to put you over a 50m gold budget...trust me, I've been trying to save enough gold to buy one for months, & I was finally about to get a crappy one last week for close to 59m (got lucky & won it off of bid; the lowest buyout one at that time was around 70m). And that's not taking into account the other three-pieces required for the 4-piece bonus, which, though not as expensive as the ring, are still going to be pricier in comparison with the equivalent item from the Modern Natalya's set. I'd recommend not going the Legacy route if you don't have tons of gold to spend, and just sticking with the new set, which for most intents & purposes is superior to the Legacy set... Just my two cents... |
Posted by Member ecocd on 1/28/13 07:05 AM
#6
Posts: 1059
Grenade Tanks use night Stalker, IAS and CC. A single cluster grenade can hit up 9 times and with a proc coefficient of 0.5. With only 40% CC that's an average of up to 2 Discipline per grenade in a mob and with even 2.5 aps, that means 6 Discipline / second. Add that to the inherent 1 per second and you're restoring 7 Discipline per second. A Nat's set would only bump that regeneration rate about 30%. I can personally vouch for that rate being realistic in a mob which the only case where constant Discipline regeneration is relevant. If you're using more than 7 Discipline / second, you're doing something wrong.
Against uniques, it can get a little rough, because you're generally only proc'ing 1 or 2 crits per attack, but that's what SoJ and Spike Trap are for to wipe them out. I even dropped Preparation, because I found I didn't need it. Have you even tried a Cluster Grenades Tank build in PvE? |
Posted by Member nuhertz on 1/28/13 08:16 AM
#7
Posts: 512
Wow, this sounds fun, I think I may need to try this when 1.0.7 hits and mp actually helps with xp gain.
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Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 1/28/13 08:42 AM
#8
Posts: 413
Yah, I tried the Cluster Grenades tank build in PvE twice, though haven't done so recently w/ the complete Legacy Natalya's set. It's definitely a good build especially if you have enough LoH, though as a personal preference I realized I still prefer to shoot arrows as opposed to dropping grenades... ;-) I tried dropping Preparation too, but after awhile I realized I used it more for a 2nd emergency healing moreso than for the Discipline refill, so I put it back into a slot... :) |
Posted by Member ecocd on 1/28/13 09:32 AM
#9
Posts: 1059
LoL. I had to add Preparation back into my Arrow builds for the same reason - health restoration. Couldn't have cared less for the Discipline restoration. Glad I'm not the only one. When I die with the Grenade Tank, I die faster than I could pop a Preparation so it became kind of superfluous - like if I forget to renew Gloom and get smack 5 times / second and die.
I definitely prefer the arrows, too, and when Patch 1.0.7 goes live, I think I can go up to MP5-6 with my sentry build, because I won't have to skip every Reflect Damage Elite I find. That's going to be fun. For now, though, when I go Key hunting and need to run MP7 or MP8, Grenade Tank is the only way I can survive. I have to go with a Shield and Numbing Traps for MP9 and I haven't even bothered trying MP10. I invested in a good +% Grenades Nat's Cloak, socketed Andariel's Visage and Freeze on Hit gear for my Scoundrel. Each one made an enormous difference in the runs. You're right about the LoH. I have about 500 on my 1H XBow and found a crazy sweet Amulet with 197 Dex, 9% IAS, 800 LoH and 500 Life Regen. It's almost perfect for this build and I've never seen anything remotely comparable to it on the AH so I don't even know how much it's worth. I'll never sell it so that doesn't matter anyway. Maybe my build ideas only work because of that Amulet. Shadow Power - Blood Moon Rune worked better for me than Gloom before I had all that LoH. @nuhertz It's really only fun if you don't have a different tank somewhere. Monks and Barbs get an inherent 25% melee damage reduction that the DH doesn't get, though a 40% Dodge makes up for a lot of that. I think running a DH tank would feel kind of dopey, if you've played a halfway decent WW Barb. |
Posted by Member douvinsky on 1/28/13 06:54 PM
#10
Posts: 1445
At full Discipline, Nat's Legacy Set is doing absolutely nothing for you. This. If you are doing Legacy, make full use of it. At least, try to vault-move or vault-TOC attack like no tomorrow. |
Posted by Member nuhertz on 1/28/13 08:03 PM
#11
Posts: 512
Thanks for the guidance, probably won't spend much on that.
Sounds like a perfect description of my barb. "Halfway decent" |
Posted by Member Metta on 1/28/13 09:54 PM
#12
Posts: 411
TBH, I'm not really a fan of the Nat's legacy set. The first thing, obviously, is the lack of damage/survivability. I haven't really seen anyone break 100k DPS with the legacy set. I think the disc regen is overrated. In regular farming, I never have a problem with disc. I use either Nightstalker or Preparation (went with Prep so I could use Archery for damage in my build). Without getting into the hard numbers, I can continually vault through empty patches, strafe through enemies, pick up health globes, and use Prep and I never have a disc problem. By the time I run out of disc, Prep is ready again.
It's not really necessary in PvP either. At 170k DPS (330k with Sharpshooter), I'm killing 95% of my opponents in 1-2 smokescreens. I'm not convinced it's even better than +20 disc. Compare 2 battles: Legacy Nat's: SS with Fog, down to 16+3=19, SS with Fog #2, down to 5+3=8. Now what? Prep? That gives you 2 more. So 4 SS with Fog. Regular Nat's: SS with Fog, down to 36. SS with Fog #2, down to 22. SS with Fog #3, down to 8. Prep gives you 3 more. So 6 SS with Fog. |
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 1/28/13 10:26 PM
#13
Posts: 413
Yah, my inspiration for attaining the Legacy Nat set goes back to this video that I saw many many months ago: Tanking Act III w/ 19k hp I tried to emulate the build w/ high resist all and armor (i.e., low true hp but very high EHP), a large amount of LoH, etc....but w/o the Legacy Natalya's set, I just couldn't seem to pull it off correctly. At the time I completed the set w/ the Legacy Natalya's crossbow, but even w/ socket, the DPS was just too low to make it work. Then the patch came out which screwed around with the way a lot of the DH's LoH processes worked (mainly nerfing the processing of poison grenades, which used to tick off more health with each second, but no longer does since it's damage-over-time), and then another patch that changed how Gloom worked, and all of this worked to make the tank build seem even less effective than before... and thus I eventually went on to other builds while slowly trying to save up money to one day buy a legacy Nats ring. And since I finally managed to purchase said ring last Fri, am looking forward to visiting this build again..! :-) Despite the fact that I couldn't quite make my DH tank work exactly the way I wanted it to, and despite my preference for arrows, I discovered as you did that I could hit some much higher MP levels and survive w/ the grenades tank build. Haven't tried MP9 or 10 yet, but I can definitely do better w/ grenades in MP7 or 8 vs trying to do so with arrows... & yah, you've got a very very sweet amulet for this build. :-)
Overall, piece for piece, I would agree the modern Nat's set is superior to the legacy set. Indeed, the *only* reason to use Legacy Nats over modern Nats is really for the 4-pc bonus. That being said, I am one of those players who loves the "overrated" discipline regeneration of the Legacy set... ;-) And though my stats have dropped overall since switching over from the Modern set to the Legacy set (especially my Resist All..!), I actually have broken 100kDPS w/ the legacy set (you can't quite see it from my character profile cause I changed all my skills up to help a friend level his secondary WD in Nightmare MP10 last night, but normally w/ Caltrops Bait the Trap & the +10% CC, my DPS is around 105k while wearing Legacy Nats...) |