Context:
Hardcore MP1, P(39) WD 90k DPS, current patch 1.07(? haha) before Blizz increases the density in other acts.

For your reference, and comments!

I name it as MF route rather than Experience route, since my focus at P39 now is on MF. At lower P level I would focus more on experience since it is easier to level up P faster and boost the MF% (3% per level).

Efficient MF route = As many lvl63 mobs killed per time played, especially when you have 5NVs
Efficient XP route = As much XP gained per time played

Without talking about MF gears/ sweet spot MP levels, here is my route:

1. Tower of the Cursed Level 1 - zoom into portal (stairs seems safer than the WP in HC, but a couple of seconds longer walk. I am not sure if there would be elites spawning right beside the stairs or the WP....can anyone confirm?), check for shrine and elite pack. If you see them grab them. If you still can't find any before you see the little stairs (the one with fire spitting thing beside it), walk back to WP.
2. WP to Stoneford, walk backwards into Skycrown (low XP mobs but enough elite packs to build up NVs)- check elites on high ground then only descend to the place where they summon a big mob (I would just skip it - takes a little bit too much time to kill and is an efficient use of my AoE)
3a. Tower of The Damned lvl1 - if I have not collected 5NVs from 1 and 2 above. Here, check north for shrine. If not, check east for shrine. While going east, check any elite at exit, if yes go exit and kill them before u run the anti-clockwise circle back to WP. I should have gotten 5NVs by now and proceed to 3b
3b. Rakkis Crossing move backwards. Skip stores if no guard crawling out. Else go in and kill the elite for the rares (for XP purpose I would just skip it since it dilutes my XP/ time played). Do the "Skyglass" event (A purple dropping 10 slots - hence more chance of getting a leg in one kill). If it is there, kill it loot it, and portal out at the top. Else walk straight into Fields.
4. Fields (Lots of range mobs). Do it from WP to WP. Don't go right to the edge, let the mobs come to you. Skip cave.
5. Keep 2. Some players skip this since the mobs are low XP mobs, but I am talking about MF so I like the quantity and density here. The proper way (if you focus on efficiency measured by play time) is to find the "black square", kill mobs in a circle around the black square, then proceed to whatever corner until you hit the end and portal out. Attach a screenshot of the "black square" for better clarity. We all like graphics?
6. AC2. Run to the end........avoid hitting a wrong turn which may force you to walk an old path with mobs already cleared. If it happens just TP out and end the game.

So far I am feeling comfortable with the above. It isn't too tiring and I believe it is quite efficient for farming legs!

Quick observation. Cave in Fields is monster sparse, but you nearly always get 5 elites. If it's strictly MF, you can't skip Caves.

Posted by ecocd at 04/03/2013 05:51 AM

Quick observation. Cave in Fields is monster sparse, but you nearly always get 5 elites. If it's strictly MF, you can't skip Caves.

Timewise it is not efficient for me. It is the same consideration of choosing not to run AC1, Core (a shorter path than Cave, with 1-3 elites but sparse white mobs), Tower of the Damned level1 (I just skip this if enough NVs due to the mobs not 'dense' enough, but I may just include it for the possibility of shrines and exciting fights with phasebeast elites, and no portal needed just WP).

Cave = a few elite packs & a R-chest (these give guaranteed rares with 5NVs), but not much white mobs. Hence if I skip the cave I can end my run faster and proceed to a new run. The problem with cave is that it takes too much time to walk. The store at Rakkis is better since I just need to walk a few steps down the stairs to kill the one elite pack. Now thinking about it I can actually skip stores.

Overall I am maximising (# of mobs killed/ time) for legs. # mobs = Elites + white mobs in densely populated areas. Elites are the one which is slowing me down. As a WD, bears + paranoid could help me kill elites faster but I don't feel comfortable switching out pets at Hardcore. I would be looking at SoJ as an alternative.

When Bliz changed the mobs density in other Acts, I would probably just run all areas to test it out. It would be good to complete all areas from Act 1 carried forward the 5NVs to Act 2.

I wouldn't be too hopeful about the monster density changes making a large difference. Flux over at IncGamers made a post about it a while ago. He noted that part of what makes Act 3 so good for farming isn't only monster density, but also its tendency to have static and linear maps. I've noticed the monster types also make a difference.

First off, you have to run MP1 in Act 1 and Act 2 for the universal alvl 63 equipment so you need better gear to handle 40% more HP than MP0. I think most of us are running at least MP1 these days, anyway, but not everyone is.

Act 1 can increase monster density in both Highlands and the Fields of Misery to make them better for farming, but the problem is that they have pretty poor monsters for farming. Those areas have the leaping lizards which have temporary invincibility while they're leaping. They also have the bull creatures that have a lot of HP and can be legitimately dangerous with their charge attack making them unsuitable for HC, in particular. The other areas in Act 1 aren't linear and you can get stuck in Dead ends which dramatically slows down farming. The monsters with those giant cudgels that swing at you are dangerous in packs which makes them bad for HC farming. Whimsyshire has good monster density and elite density right now, but they're Act 4 monsters and those ponies hit fast and hard.

Act 2 can increase monster density in the Desolate Sands and Dhalgur Oasis making them more suitable for farming. Vault of Assassins is already the best place for farming Demonic Essences and has a consistent pattern. The problem again is the monsters. The Desolate Sands is full of the Lacuni's that are invincible when they leap and the insects that can kill you in a hurry if you're not paying close attention. The VoA and Oasis have the invisible serpents which are both invincible and dangerous in packs and the spinning dervishes are heavily shielded much of the time and and dangerous in elite packs.

Act 4 is dangerous, non-linear in the Silver Spire and short so it's never going to be a good place for farming unless they jack the XP way up on a per monster basis. Even then, it would only be a SC-only run.

So overall, I think SC could get Act 1 close to Act 3 for hybrid XP/MF runs, particularly if you can pwn Act 1 Whimsy. Act 2 could be very good in SC, particularly for DH and Archon which don't have to chase ranged characters. For HC, the monster types are still simply too dangerous to be worth the risk in Act 1 and 2.

Unless they change the XP per monster across the across, Act 3 will still be the most efficient no matter what they do to monster density. Like a lot of the class skills changes they've made, however, they should offer alternate almost-as-good opportunities to take a lot of the grinding boredom for those willing to pay the 10-20% XP cost for that variety.

*gets off soap box*

Act 1 can increase monster density in both Highlands and the Fields of Misery to make them better for farming, but the problem is that they have pretty poor monsters for farming. Those areas have the leaping lizards which have temporary invincibility while they're leaping. They also have the bull creatures that have a lot of HP and can be legitimately dangerous with their charge attack making them unsuitable for HC, in particular. The other areas in Act 1 aren't linear and you can get stuck in Dead ends which dramatically slows down farming. The monsters with those giant cudgels that swing at you are dangerous in packs which makes them bad for HC farming.

I agree with what you said.

At HC, I actually started farming with Act 1 MP1, before I move to Act 3 MP0 (then MP1). Most of my close calls at Act 1 actually comes from the Crypts at the Cemetery - narrow corridors with wallers.

I guess it would be at least "more worthwhile/ even more dangerous+exciting at HC" when I started farming for keys in Act 1 and Act 2 after patch changes.

I actually zoomed into the Icefall Cave in my current run. Killed the 4 elite packs + open the R-chest.

The type of elites there makes me nervous a bit. Some fast dogs with fire-chain, some bull like with vortex, some Possessed with Waller and Jailer. 2 of them managed to bring my HP down by 50% and the thought of death loomed over me when I have no way to run. EF helped a little by fearing them off.

I HATE!! Icefall Caves. You're right, and even in softcore I skip it. However, caverns of frost has much better monster types, a lot less threatening. I always go in there.

Hopefully that helps.

Yummy...................2 elites pack with a Fleeting Shrine..............what a great way to start the run!

@ecocd

I need to check with you on this, regarding the chance of legs per one white mob/ per one elite killed. Since you mention Cave for MF, you might know something which I have missed.

So:
One white mob - drop from 0 - 1 item (excluding item bonus modification)?
One elite mob - drop from x - y items

Do you know the value of x and y? Does the "item" includes both gears + potion/ tomes (i.e if a white mob drop a tome it won't drop gears, if an elite drop potion and tomes he will drop less gears)?

I always use that WP when running Arreat Crater 2, often there's a pack (or two) and a shrine either where you have it in the pic or a little left on the ledge - and you don't need to climb the stairs to get it, pick it up without running around FTW!

You can then you go up the stairs and start the crater and head towards the WP and keep going on your farming runs. Less TP's the better.

I think ac2 is dense enough hence I prefer to run there only when I am at 5 stacks.
Also in the context of HC I am worried that if I run backwards from Curse lvl1 I may run into an unknown pack at the other side of AC2!

@douvinsky You're going to get more than you bargained for, because it's a complicated answer for a simple question. Grab a beer and get comfortable.

Elites currently drop in a very specific order. Blue and Gold elites drop the same way. They have 4 slot drops. They literally drop in same order when you kill an elite. The first slot is guaranteed to be at least Blue and has an above average chance of being Yellow compared to a normal white mob drop. Drops 2 and 3 appear to drop similarly to white monsters with a possible slight increase in the probability of a Magic item. Potions, Gems, Tomes and Gold piles are determined separately.

A 4th item drops exactly half the time regardless of your MF and it drops the same as Slot 1 which is a guarantee of being blue and an elevated chance of being yellow.

With 5 stacks of NV, the rare is in the 5th slot and drops the same as Slot 1 & 4, except any item that would have been Magical is a 4-affix rare, instead. As a side note, this is part of the reason, rares seem like they're crap all the time and Blizzard would have been better off simply making them exactly like Slots 1 & 4. Anyway, we'll refer to these as "premium drops."

It looks like there's empirical evidence that the probability of the premium item drops as a 6-affix rare is around a 24x increase over the non-premium drops which are either the same or slightly better than a drop from a white monster.

In terms of Legendary and set drops, we don't know if that ratio has diminishing returns or if it's the same 24x increase. Let's say it's between a 15x and 24x increase over white mobs.

Unlike D2, in D3 every white mob has the same drop table meaning they drop exactly the same distribution of items (i.e., the same proportion of Yatagans vs. Rings). Every mlvl 63 enemy can drop any Legendary/Set item above ilvl 58. We know monsters have dramatically different probabilities to drop a health globe so I figure it makes sense they have a different probability of dropping an item at all. it would just be mind-bogglingly stupid game design to have a Gorgon drop an item exactly as often as a spiderling.

Let's throw a number out there and say an Act 3 spider thing has a 10% chance of dropping any item at all. Since you're guaranteed 2 premium items from each elite pack and have a 50% chance of getting another, you get an average of 2.5 premium items per elite pack.

I'll make the assumption that double Legendary/Set drops from an elite are so rare, we ignore that as a possibility. If premium drops have a 15x chance of dropping Legendary and spiders drop items 10% of the time, then an elite pack kill is worth about 375 spider kills (2.5 * 15 * [1/0.10]). If premium drops have a 24x chance of dropping Legendary then an elite pack kill is worth about 600 spider kills.

These equivalent kill numbers likely decrease with each additional MP level. A spider drops twice as many items on MP10 as MP0. The Elite pack still only drops 1 bonus item so they're getting only a 20-25% increase in item drops. Even if that bonus item is guaranteed to be a premium item, you're still only seeing a 40% increase in premium items. At MP10, those equivalent kill numbers could be nearly cut in half.

So there you go. If you can kill 300+ spider things in the same time it takes to kill 1 elite pack (certainly possible at the highest MP levels), then ignore elites. At MP0-1, if you're looking solely to item farm, you should be focusing primarily albeit not exclusively, on elite kills which makes the Caves a must-clear area. If you still put a lot of value on XP while item farming, you can probably skip the caves, because it's horrendously bad for XP.

@ecocd Off Topic, but there needs to be an "ecocd's corner" in which you share your knowledge weekly. I read every post of yours for the "numbers", which helps me farm more efficiently.

@anuiran Please make this happen.

Please and thank you!

Edit: Fixed mispelling.

@ecocd

Thanks.
I definitely got a great bargain here lol. I don't drink beer, but I definitely need to re-read what your have written again after a good night sleep.

It is time to fine tune my MF run. Stores with Elites = Kill. Caves - not so sure yet due to the travelling time and lack of trash mobs for my soul harvest, and the danger of dying easier.

I also started to count how many gears those elites drop to make sure they don't short change me. Most of the time I get 4-5, although I counted 7 from one in the Frost Cave.

One more question................what do you think of regular chest then, for MF run? How about they dying guard in the Field who says "leave me alone" then drop you a weapon? Weapon and armor rack?

Posted by nuhertz at 04/04/2013 09:18 AM

@ecocd Off Topic, but there needs to be an "ecocd's corner" in which you share your knowledge weekly. I read every post of yours for the "numbers", which helps me farm more efficiently.

@anurian Please make this happen.

Please and thank you!

You are not the only one who mistyped @anuiran. I counted 4 since I joined RMT.

Posted by douvinsky at 04/04/2013 09:20 AM

One more question................what do you think of regular chest then, for MF run? How about they dying guard in the Field who says "leave me alone" then drop you a weapon? Weapon and armor rack?

Due to botting, MF/GF does not apply to chests and breakables. I don't think it applies to Resplendent Chests, but I know they drop like Elites. They only take a second to open, but they're likely to be trash.

I forgot to mention that each type of Treasure Goblin have unique item tables. Like Elites, they drop a bonus rare with 5 stacks of NV. i know one Goblin type drops mostly Gems, Tomes, Recipes, Potions and Gold. I don't know about the other 3, but if you can, it pays to wait for 5 stacks to kill a Gob.

Posted by ecocd at 04/04/2013 09:34 AM

Due to botting, MF/GF does not apply to chests and breakables. I don't think it applies to Resplendent Chests, but I know they drop like Elites. They only take a second to open, but they're likely to be trash.

Hah! Just the other night..

Another math heavy insight into MF

http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/

Lots of good info on the drops, especially for treasure goblins.

@ninjax

Where was that screenshot taken? BCM?

Posted by douvinsky at 04/04/2013 09:20 AM

@ecocd
One more question................what do you think of regular chest then, for MF run?

While I was still doing my 100mil gold pickup achievement I noticed that regular chests drops a LOT of gold.
After a while I made a point of opening each chest I get, and most of the times it dropped a gold pile and no item. So for MF not great, for GF chests is a must in my opinion. (This was observed with the same value MF and GF)

The same goes for guard corpses. I got a lot of gold from them, but not really great items.