Posted by Member Bort on 9/16/13 01:29 AM
Long rant: I have always had issues with people blindly following what is considered "BiS". This is a problem that actually stems from my MTG days, where people would simply play "net-decks" without even looking at other cards for their potential. People seems to just read what other people have concluded, and then blindly believe that, and then try and duplicate the results. Instead of looking at their own situation, and really thinking what would work best for them.
It seems that people are really really good at finding forums/posts/threads that in short tells them what the BiS items are. Unfortunately I don't have that skill. I actually suck at finding these things. But I can get to similar results doing my own analysis.
I guess its my love for analysis that makes me different. I would much rather do my own maths and calculations and stuff. And evaluate the results for my needs.
Main reason for this rant is how overprices these "BiS" items are. Because even though an item might technically be BiS, it really won't (in my opinion) justify the price difference between the best and 2nd best item costs.
Just as an example. I wanted to get my DH DPS up. My life and AR can be better, but just focussing on DPS here. I have an Andariel's Visage worth maybe 50mil. I have compared this with the best possible Mempo. (200Dex, 6%CC, 9% Att/S) FROM THE DPS points of view only. The best possible Mempo can increase my DPS with a whopping 600. So basically noting. Now I get that the mempo adds a lot in terms of life, and AR and is technicaly the best item. But the price difference between my Andariel and ANY mempo with CC is just insane.
Even on the highest DPS DH (according to diabloprogress) my andariel (which isn't the best you can get) would only reduce his DPS with 3195.
My point being.... the BiS items are insanely overpriced, while the 2nd best items are basically worthless in terms of AH.
(a) you can probably do fairly good with 2nd best items for MUCH less gold invested.
(b) the price difference between 2nd and 1st items are out of wack when compared to the actual stat difference they make.
(c) BiS might not actually increase your stats as expected. For example a Mempo with 5.5CC, 200Dex and 9% will probably put me back 2bil gold, and will actually reduce my DPS by 1014, not increase it. Yet everyone will automatically say the Mempo is better. (and yeah, once again, I get that it is the better item.... its just not 40 times bette, yet it costs 40 times what I can get for my Andariel)
(d) Depending on what you want to get higher (DPS, EHP or both) the BiS item might not be BiS for you.
Edit* A second example is the 2 Sockets of Manticore. People say 1 Ruby and 1 Emerald is the best. And this is what you see in most player's profile. (Even my own currently)
But... after doing the maths I can actually gain 9k unbuffed DPS by replacing the Ruby with a 2nd Emerald.
Short version: Depending on your needs "BiS" might not be the best for you.
Blindly looking at BiS
Posted by Member h311o on 9/16/13 02:55 AM
You are so right about people only looking what others suggest to be BiS.
But on the other hand they are BiS items regardless of their price.
One or two BiS items won't make your char the best - it always depends on your preferances and playstyle as well as the overall of your items.
As you say the prices for the best items are inflated but as long as there is someone who buys it at that price we won't get them cheaper. So if I can loot a BiS (didn't happen to me yet though I looted 2 crit Mempos) I'll look at my chars if they benefit else I'll try to sell them ;-)
Posted by Member ecocd on 9/16/13 09:06 AM
There are a few points to address, both in the positive and the negative. Let's start with the positive.
I completely agree that BiS suggestions are not universally the best. This is particularly applicable to different builds. A HotA Barb can often do almost as well with a 2H IK weapon as he can with a Skorn, especially the flexibility it offers. A DH that wants to specialize in Sentry can focus more heavily on Dex and IAS rather than CC and CD.
The Ruby vs. Emerald thing has completely baffled me since they implemented the new Rubies. There are very few cases where the Ruby gives higher dps (pretty much Sentry builds or unusually low CC/high CD builds). What I will point out is that it increases your minimum damage dealt which is actually more likely to increase your kill rate of mobs more than another 100% CD. So display dps is lower, but effective kill speed is actually faster. That said, I bet only 1% of people using this set up actually know why they're using it so they're just taking BiS advice and going with it.
The difference, though, is with the investment of time and money. Everyone has a different rate of return on these. My father earns more than twice as much money as I do, but also works at least 50% more hours / week. His time is worth far more than mine. When we were both looking for surround sound speaker systems, we took a very different approach.
I did 4 hours of research and came upon Fluance speakers which are very high quality for the price. My dad went into an electronics store and bought a nice set of Bose speakers. Our speakers are probably similar in quality, but he paid at least 50% more than I did, except we both made completely rational decisions. He knew Bose was going to give him great quality sound. Period. He traded some money for 4 hours of his life.
I think that same thing applies to BiS items in Diablo 3. There are many people with little time, but lots of gold and/or real money to spend. They know they're going to get a very good set of items without having to figure out if an equivalent Visage gives them similar value. The exchange makes sense for them.
I'll perhaps post about premium valuation later, but the gap between 2nd best and 1st best being a wide chasm is also perfectly rational. In short, though, it comes down to two main points: (a) the difference in rarity between the 2nd best and 1st best items is enormous so they're right to command a premium, (b) the people purchasing these items are the best equipped in the entire game already and all universally have so much wealth you have the ultra-wealthy bidding against the ultra-wealthy.
Posted by Member nuhertz on 9/16/13 10:23 AM
Our gearing philosophies are very similar.
I don't plan on owning and using a CC Mempo ever. Why? Because if I find one, the gear I can replace (almost everything else) with the sale price will give me more EHP and DPS.
Even if it didn't, the $20 I could take out of the game makes me much happer than a DPS and EHP increase.
I just want to be able to farm efficiently, and don't need the huge DPS number to show how good of a player I am.
Also, since I multibox, gearing 4 accounts gets very pricey with top tier items. I gain enough efficiency from running four accounts to not have to be max efficiency on one.
Posted by Member berzerkerxx on 9/16/13 01:25 PM
I've always wondered how in the hell did the prices that people originally came up with got so high...Why did a mempo with crit get so high of a price in the first place. Another example is the Spectrums. Sure they're low level but 12$ for a high dps one. (yes i know @nuhertz makes a lot from them, and i will still help farm for them but)
Posted by Member Bort on 9/16/13 01:36 PM
@ecocd As usual, very good analysis.
And even though I agree on most of what you said, I disagree that the high prices are justified. Ok... you said rational. But its not. Rational would have been if the prices went up at the same ratio as the stats.
Also... a very negative way of reading your post is that you either get lucky and loot a #1 item. OR you spend money. But there is no way to get there by selling #2 items. And that's the core of my complaint. If I pick up 3 good items they should give me enough money for 1 very good item. But in reality they don't. Like you say... it's pretty much just the ultra-wealthy (which excludes me by far) that can afford these items.
Maybe i'm just jealous. :)
Posted by Member moloch154 on 9/16/13 03:43 PM
@Bort. Totally dismissing the eHP component in your example kind of leaves out a rather large reason in this particular case why the cost is proportionally higher. The market determines the price and individuals determine on their own the value of that item. You touched on the masses following cookie cutter builds via information already shared and how you like to figure things out on your own. I honestly do not see this as an either/or proposition. Like with everything else, some information that has been shared is useful, while other information is either plan wrong or not really applicable. That being said, I believe if you are trying to discover things on your own, gathering alternative perspectives will allow you to make a more informed decision based on the entirety of the information you have researched and apply that to your own hands on testing and/or theory crafting and ideally come up with the best solution possible.
With regards to D3, most items that are commonly believed to be BiS are truly BiS. At that point, it really is just a matter of economics and what you can afford.
Posted by Member nuhertz on 9/17/13 06:29 AM
A lot of the crazy prices are symptoms of a broken item system. If you want to have the best in slot helm, you have a Mempo with crit chance or..... Or...... Well, a Mempo with crit.
If there were alternatives, the Mempo with crit wouldn't be priced so high, since other items would have a chance to roll best in slot there.
But the difference between a 5.5% CC Mempo and a 6.0% CC Mempo makes sense.
Do you want just any Major League baseball player? Or do you want Babe Ruth? There is a price difference.
Posted by Member eastdragon42 on 9/17/13 07:31 AM
I totally understand where you're coming from (& am probably a bit jealous myself of those ultra-wealthy in the top 1%). & justified or not, or rational or not, that's what we get living in a capitalistic world. ;-) The same thing can be said in real life for pretty much every thing though. For instance, whenever I upgrade my computer (I build my own machines btw), I never buy the highest-end components, cause although it might be the fastest CPU/RAM/video card/etc., the slight performance boost you get out of that vs the second tier stuff usually does not (in my mind at least) justify the exorbitant cost. But for a professional gamer, that extra performance boost & extra couple of frames per second probably is worth it, so they're willing to splurge.
Another example: When my father hiked the Appalachian Trail, he was willing to spend 4-5 times the price for camping gear & equipment just to shave a couple of grams off the weight. At the time, I thought he was getting ripped off, but on hindsight, when you're carrying that much weight on your back for several thousand kilometers, every little bit that you can shave off of it is probably worth it...
So yeah, I agree, some BiS items really are overpriced; which is why my DH doesn't have a CC Mempo, or trifecta gloves, or a trifecta Natalya's Reflection, etc. & probably never will. And no, there's no way to purchase a #1 item by selling several #2 items. Though if you sell several dozen #2 items, then maybe, just maybe, you could afford to buy a low-end #1 item... ;-)
btw, @ecocd gave a very detailed analysis to me in another thread about whether it was to my advantage to swap out one of the emeralds in my Manticore for a ruby, & mathematically & logically, it all made a lot of sense... so I'm happy to say I'm in that 1% category who actually understands why it's better for me (I actually did get a slight paper DPS increase on my manticore by switching out the gems)... :-)