@ecocd wow thanks for the detail, even gear - awesome.

Looking forward to some spare time when back from skiing in the new year to try those out!

@eastdragon42 I definitely ran dual 1H XBows for a long time and there's nothing wrong with them. The issue I've found is that Blizzard really screwed the pooch with Dead Man's Quiver. Spending 4 million on a Calamity and DMQ would give the same damage output as 30 million on a Danetta's Set. The big difference is Crit Damage. If your build is Crit dependent, then a good pair of Danetta's are going to do more damage than Calamity/DMQ. Unless Crits are the focus of your build, however, there's just no good reason to run Dual 1H XBows. If DMQ capped at 15% attack speed, it would be a different story, but Blizz just messed up on that one. The only way to make things right is to bump dual 1H XBow passive attack speed bonus to 20% or create another legendary set of 1H XBows that have +5% attack speed bonus.

As far as using a shield, it's certainly viable. I switched over to a shield on my grenadier tank and improved my survivability a ton. Blocking 3700-4700 damage 22% of the time on top of the Dodge chance means a DH is getting hit fairly rarely. I haven't tried a good Helm of Command, but that 8% block is looking pretty inviting (losing 9% AS from Andariel's visage is tough).

@Metta I love that build! It's definitely a high dps 2H XBow build, too. I'll have to see if I have any gear I can pair up with a cheap dual socket Manticore to give it a try. It will be interesting to run without a Hatred Generator. Do you use the Templar when soloing for his 1 Hatred or the scoundrel for his 3% Crit Chance? It seems you could make a case for either.

@Metta

I was originally trying a combination of Bola Shot stun + 6 spikes + Caltrops - Torturous ground + vault. All looks good and takes lots of skills + positioning. But then I realise what I did is a complete waste..............in MP0 when my DPS has shot over 100k. So, WTH, Metta said Rambo so let's do Rambo!!

I copied your build with 3 differences in runes (mostly due to familiarity with them while I was farming Leoric Signet in Normal). Playstyle is easy: One-off bat summon, vault to move, multishot x 2, vault in, strafe, vault to the northeast vault to the southwest with ToC while waiting for hatred regen if that's the case......Shadow power & Preparation as necessary.


Strafe - Stinging Steel <same>
Multishot - <Suppression Fire> --> For the extra 1 discipline per enemy hit
Shadow Power - Gloom <same>
Vault - <Trail of Cinders> --> For offensive vault, X cross X them
Companion - Bat Companion <same>
Preparation - <Battle Scars> --> For HP regained

I bought new gears with +dmg to strafe and multishot......and have to relist what I bought for +dmg to spike and bola shot. However the good news is I actually profit from it (2m Nat Chest flip to 4m). Not sure if what I bought/ relisted are bargains.

Surprisingly it didn't cost me much to upgrade my DH from 10k to over 100k. With some spare gears from Monks, I bought a few new gears from the AH, each one below 2m, some are even just for a few hundred Ks. I didn't go for top gears but was only looking for bargains at 1D11hr and 1D12 hr. Not sure if I overpaid/ prioritise wrongly though. I probably need advice on my gears later on when I decide to spend a little bit more on my DH.

120k for this Nat Chest with +7% CC to Strafe



750k for this DM Legacy with +8% Multishot



2m for this Manticore



I also flipped (not intentionally) the following Nat Chest with +spike dmg from 2m to 4m. Both In and Out happens within 30 minutes of listing hence maybe it was still a good bargain.

I have at least one spare DML, i'll see what the buff is for on it when it comes back up if any of you are interested. Dex and Vit are about the same. Also have a Calamity if anyone wants to borrow it

@stukthrtl

What's the stats on the Calamity? I think my Manticore somehow lack DPS since it only costs me 2m.

@ecocd, @Metta

Newbie questions....what stats should I look for on a Calamity? Especially if I am running the "Rambo" build? I am guessing apart from high weapon dmg, high hatred + socket? Which weapon would be the BiS, and which one would be the "best bang for your buck" in terms of current market demand and supply?

For the Rambo build, you're actually probably best going with a Manticore. It's pretty Hatred hungry which means you want to slug out as much damage as possible per shot and a dual socket Manticore is best in class. Beyond that you'll want a good balance of Dex, CD and CC. Attack speed is nice, but it's not going to be as important as Dex and CC. Make sure you're running with at least 40% CC. That means you'll crit a single monster at least once 64% of the time. The more CC you have, the better. The more Dex you have, the shorter your elite battles will go on. Too much AS is potentially a negative since the Hatred usage rate on Strafe is tied directly to attack speed.

@ecocd

Thanks! That's very useful!
.......time to get rid of my Attack Speed on gloves, nat ring (can't), DML (can't), Inna Pants (can't)..............>-<

@douvinsky

@ecocd

Make sure you're running with at least 40% CC. That means you'll crit a single monster at least once 64% of the time.

I don't quite understand where does 64% comes from. I checked my passive, my bonus +dmg but I couldn't get it. Care to elaborate?

@Stukthrtl

Thanks. Think I will pass it for now. I was originally thinking of Calamity + Nat Slayer for more hatred regen, and free up one slot for nat set (hence I can use Inna Helm instead, and switch out Inna Pants and retain Inna's Favor).

Posted by ecocd at 12/18/2012 04:33 AM

@eastdragon42 I definitely ran dual 1H XBows for a long time and there's nothing wrong with them. The issue I've found is that Blizzard really screwed the pooch with Dead Man's Quiver. Spending 4 million on a Calamity and DMQ would give the same damage output as 30 million on a Danetta's Set. The big difference is Crit Damage. If your build is Crit dependent, then a good pair of Danetta's are going to do more damage than Calamity/DMQ. Unless Crits are the focus of your build, however, there's just no good reason to run Dual 1H XBows. If DMQ capped at 15% attack speed, it would be a different story, but Blizz just messed up on that one. The only way to make things right is to bump dual 1H XBow passive attack speed bonus to 20% or create another legendary set of 1H XBows that have +5% attack speed bonus.

As far as using a shield, it's certainly viable. I switched over to a shield on my grenadier tank and improved my survivability a ton. Blocking 3700-4700 damage 22% of the time on top of the Dodge chance means a DH is getting hit fairly rarely. I haven't tried a good Helm of Command, but that 8% block is looking pretty inviting (losing 9% AS from Andariel's visage is tough).

Thanks for the explanation, @ecocd! I might have to go back & explore the Manticore / Dead Man's Legacy potential again some day. Indeed, I just picked up a DML on the AH the other day as an impulse purchase, since it looked like a decent deal & there was less than 2 min to spare on the auction; only cost around 350,000 gold... (Now I just need to get lucky with a Manticore as well..!)

Though unfortunately, most of my gear is aimed at cc & cd as opposed to ias, so my attack speed for two-handed crossbows is probably going to be quite abysmal... :-0

Posted by douvinsky at 12/18/2012 10:30 PM

Make sure you're running with at least 40% CC. That means you'll crit a single monster at least once 64% of the time.

I don't quite understand where does 64% comes from. I checked my passive, my bonus +dmg but I couldn't get it. Care to elaborate?

Riiiiight. Posted from my smartphone and didn't doublecheck. The idea of Rambo is 1 or 2 Multishots so that should read:
"If you fire 2 Multishots, 40% CC means you'll have a 64% chance of getting at least one crit on any given monster (1-0.4)*(1-0.4) = 0.64." One crit should be all you need to take down a white monster. The more CC you have, the fewer white critters you need to mop up with Strafe on average. You'll certainly kill some without a CC, but CC is a guaranteed kill at 300%-350% CD from your Manticore alone.

One of the huge advantages of the 2H XBows is their tiny damage range. An ilvl 63 1H XBow has a base damage range of 48-279 damage per hit. The ilvl 63 2H Xbow has a base damage range of 413-514 per hit - much, much tighter. This is also why the 1H XBows have a base attack speed of 1.60 aps compared to only 1.10 of the 2H XBow. If we assume a minor +0.4 aps from equipment (for easy math's sake), that becomes 2.00 aps vs. 1.50 aps. Over 6 seconds, the 1H XBow will fire 4 times, while the 2H Xbow will fire 3 times leading to respective base ranges of 192-1116 (654 average dps) and 1239-2056 (1647 average dps). Some of that damage is made back up through bigger bonuses from +damage items, 2x LoH, 400% crit damage, +10% CC from Archery by dual-wielding. (Note, this damage range argument applies to all 2H weapons and is a woefully underappreciated benefit). The Manticore is where Blizzard completely screwed the pooch on DH balance.

Because of the dual-socket on the Manticore, it's now possible to gain 300% CD on a 2H XBow which eats into the dual wield advantage by 100% CD. Archery bonus further eats into that moving up to 350% CD. Quiver gives +10% CC which completely neutralizes the 1H XBow Archery bonus. DML increases attack speed up to 20% whereas Dual Wield only gets a 15% attack speed bonus. Quivers and 1H XBows can both get Discipline and and Hatred Regen. Nearly every advantage regarding damage has been given to the 2H XBow.

They put so little thought and planning into the DH until 1.05 it's laughable. In later patches they're going to have to increase the attack speed bonus from dual wield 1H XBows to 20% and the Archery bonus to 20% CC if they actually give a sh*t. To be honest, I don't believe they give a sh*t about DHs.

PvP-wise, however, there's a good argument to be made for dual-wield 1H Crossbows, because they'll be able to run Black damage allowing chill from SoJ, dual LoH could be important if it's not a one-shot festival and extra attack speed gains a few frames between firing and running. Those could make the difference of life and death.

What I said about moving to Calamities is, in retrospect, complete and utter crap. Calamity is best for the Nester and Grenadier Tank where attack speed is king and dual LoH helps. Everywhere else, the Manticore is the way to go.

Yes, I'm still p.o.'ed about this 4 months later.

Posted by douvinsky at 12/18/2012 10:30 PM

@ecocd Thanks. Think I will pass it for now. I was originally thinking of Calamity + Nat Slayer for more hatred regen, and free up one slot for nat set (hence I can use Inna Helm instead, and switch out Inna Pants and retain Inna's Favor).

Ran out of characters in that last post. Don't forget that Nat Slayer is Cold Damage. On any black damage skills, every other hit (dual wield alternates hands) will always proc a 30% chill effect. This does nothing to elites, but for white mobs on higher MP levels that take more than 2 hits to kill, it's a pretty big advantage. Cold damage works out to a passive 8-10% attack speed bonus since it takes longer for monsters to run towards you and if you run the Cull the Weak passive you get a 15% damage bonus, because the game checks for the damage bonus after the Cold damage chill effect occurs. Cold damage even procs on Spike Trap - Scatter if you lay them down while on your offhand attack. Fan of Knives and Rain of Vengeance use only primary hand damage, though Fan of Knives comes with it's only chill effect inherently.

What I said about moving to Calamities is, in retrospect, complete and utter crap. Calamity is best for the Nester and Grenadier Tank where attack speed is king and dual LoH helps. Everywhere else, the Manticore is the way to go.

haha, I was going to say this, but I guess you already recanted. I ran some tests with Calamity/Manticore and did some calculations. My conclusion is that Calamity can't match the DPS of Manticore.

The main problem I found was that Calamity cannot roll dex AND a socket. For DPS purposes, you really want the socket, but here's what happens. Let's say you just swap Calamity with Manticore and keep the quiver. When you run Archery, you gain 10% CC, but you lose 150% CD (from the added socket and Archery) AND you lose the 150+ dex. The real problem here is there is nowhere else to stack enough CD to maximize your CC/CD multiplier. Example:

45% CC, 500% CD = 22,500 multiplier
With 55% CC, I still need 410% CD to get the same damage. This means that I need to stack 210% (with perfect Calamity) on just amulet, gloves, belt, and rings. Not impossible, but kind of difficult and somewhat expensive.
If I go with Manticore, I need to get to 500% CD, but it's much easier. Manticore gives me 300% (with perfect Manticore) plus 50% bonus from Archery, so I only need 150%. In addition to that, I am going to get the dex from Manticore.

What about dual-wielding? This is even worse. You can easily reach the CD (400% with 2 perfect Calamitys), but now you're going to lose out on everything the DML provides. Which can be a lot:

170-350 dex
170-350 vit
5% AS
Bonus damage to ability

Doing 1 socketed Calamity and 1 dex Calamity doesn't help either. You'll still lose the dex from your main-hand, the vit from the quiver, the added AS, and the bonus damage. And CD will now only match a Manticore (100% from each Calamity plus socket). So yeah, I'm actually confused as to why some people are using Calamity...

Posted by Metta at 12/19/2012 12:17 PM

Doing 1 socketed Calamity and 1 dex Calamity doesn't help either. You'll still lose the dex from your main-hand, the vit from the quiver, the added AS, and the bonus damage. And CD will now only match a Manticore (100% from each Calamity plus socket). So yeah, I'm actually confused as to why some people are using Calamity...

As I mentioned, the Nester, Stunner and Grenadier Tank are all better with a 1H XBow. The Nester uses Sentries which don't proc critical hits so you actually go for a Dex Calamity rather than a Socketed Calamity. The Stunner needs the attack speed of 1H XBow + DML to keep enemies under near-stunlock. The Grenadier Tank needs the attack speed of a 1H XBow to keep up the crits and a shield helps on defense.

Regarding Dual Wielding, you actually drop the Calamity in favor of two rare 1H XBows. If we're theorycrafting, a rare 1H Xbow can drop with:
350 Dex
350 Vit
150 Int/Str
50% Weapon Damage
100% CD
Socket

And that's on each hand. Overall, you're pumping out:
700 Dex
700 Vit
300 Int/Str
50% Weapon Damage
200% CD
2 Sockets
+15% AS (dual wield bonus)
+10% CC (Archery)

That's going to put out pretty much the same damage as a perfect Manitcore & DML.

Got my DH to P-level 4 (yay!). Lesser and lesser deaths (zero for the last P level I think).

I am currently settled for the strafe-demolition + Fan of Knives build for MP0, as in another thread MP0 Strafe Build

I also bought a Legacy Nat set for the seemingly endless discipline regen. Anyone care to lend me a Legacy Nat Helm with open socket?

I started using a variant of the Strafe/Rambo/Grenade builds. Build here.

Main:
Grenades - Cluster (it works and works well)
Multishot - Arsenal (rockets are cool)

Set it and Forget it:
Chakram - Shuriken Cloud (still unsure if this actually helps/acts like a suitable barrier)
Companion - Boar (need that extra defense)

Bail before its too late:
Vault - Trail of Cinders

Passives:
Nightstalker - Discipline regen to keep up Shadow Power
Ballistics - For the rockets from Multishot
Archery - The CC

To deal with some squishyness, I picked up a dual socket Jousting Mail

I still can't decide whether I prefer the Manti:



or

the Calamity:





I've also experimented using Frostburn Gauntlets and Cull the Weak as a passive. I like it when using Multishot but the lack of other stats on the gloves leaves much to be desired. Appears to be a good "boss fight" glove paired with a Stone of Jordan vs daily use.

Posted by Metta at 12/19/2012 12:17 PM

So yeah, I'm actually confused as to why some people are using Calamity...

I prefer it for the extra 12% damage that marked for death gives (my calamity has a 48% chance to activate it). Additionally, When the high attack speed for grenades/LOH/Lifesteal gets you out of a pinch or allows you to be lazy (standing in desecrator pools while grenading).

Posted by Metta at 12/18/2012 12:44 AM

I call this the "Rambo" build because you don't kite, you don't dodge, you don't back off. You just blast the [filtered] out of everything as quickly as possible.

Strafe - Stinging Steel
Multishot - Fire At Will
Shadow Power - Gloom
Vault - Tumble
Companion - Bat Companion
Preparation - Focused Mind

Archery
Tactical Advantage
Vengeance

I found a decent deal on a single-socket Manticore after realizing that my Witching Hour and other gear meant I didn't need the dual-socket. I put this together and I've tried running some targeted gear with it. It runs really well on MP0 with only Reflect Damage giving me fits (hence Perfectionist). The problem for me is that it's so gear dependent.

When I ran my Calamity Evasive Fire build, I could wear Cain's Set and a Signet to boost experience +45% over my Rambo build. That works out to about a 30% relative boost (~150%-190%) in experience on the run. I can't get the Signet on this build, because I need the plus damage to Elites on my SoJ. Trail of Cinders does wonders on Elites.

Since I dropped Tactical Advantage, I was able to drop Preparation and haven't found a great replacement. I'm thinking about trying Marked for Death or Sentry. I'm primarily looking to be able to wear my Signet in place of the SoJ without dramatically increasing the time to kill Elites. Any other ideas? My current:

Strafe - Stinging Steel
Multishot - Fire At Will
Shadow Power - Gloom
Vault - Trail of cinders
Companion - Bat Companion
<open slot>

Steady Aim
Vengeance
Perfectionist

I'm still getting accustomed to using the Run key instead of the left-click to move.

I quite like running Spike Traps along with Strafe. Just lay down some traps when your running along and when you run through mobs strafe right through them.

@NightCrawler9 Spike Trap is a great skill. I use Spike Trap - Echoing Blast or Scatter with every normal MP2+ builds that have Hatred generating skills. The Rambo build, though, is incredibly Hatred hungry and I'm looking to drop all Hatred regenerators.

The additional skills, strategy or equipment would need a low investment of Hatred (single one-time Sentry) or Discipline (Marked for Death). As far as killing mobs, this build kills every MP0 white enemy in well under the 1.5 second fuse.

Does anyone think a Dex Inna's Belt would be worth giving up the 40% CD, 69 Dex and 9% attack speed on my Witching Hour? If everything dies in 2 shots, Attack Speed doesn't seem as important. It could be upwards of +200 Dex compared to my Witch Hour.

On the Inna, there's also the additional 7 to 8% holy damage if you're using a calamity since its a black weapon.

I haven't played my DH in awhile, but I switched to a pure Strafe build. I think you can still use Multishot- Fire At Will, but I've found that the majority of damage should come from Strafe to maximize efficient killing. Obviously, this requires good Hatred Regen.

Chakram - Shuriken Cloud (passive DPS that costs no Hatred and helps a lot while blasting stuff up close)
Strafe - Demolition (maximize damage output with Strafe)
Shadow Power - Night Bane (more Hatred regen)
Vault - Trail of Cinders (more DPS for annoying Elites)
Companion - Bat (hatred regen)
Fan of Knives - Hail of Knives (this ability is pretty irrelevant, but I would just use something that doesn't require much hatred)

Tactical Advantage
Nightstalker
Vengeance

4 set Natalya's for the extra disc to spam Shadow Power and pickup radius are key. I think I was getting about 6 mil exp/6 mins or 60 mil/hour on my run.

@Khan For black skills the Inna's adds damage so it would for Strafe, but Fire At Will converts all damage to lightning so it wouldn't increase the Multishot damage. The other option is to use Full Broadside Multishot for additional black damage, albeit at 30 Hatred / shot, to gain the Inna's boost, SoJ boost and normal damage boost from the rune.

@Metta I think I'll have to pass on the 300 million Gold it would take to put together a decent Nat's Legacy Set as that's more than my net worth up to this point, but it's definitely an interesting build. I'll look into Demolition and Shadow Power - Night Bane, at least. I might be able to increase the damage from my own build with those.

@ecocd

I don't use the Legacy Nat's; I just use the extra 20 disc from regular Nat's. I've found that I get enough disc from Nightstalker and it's just necessary to have a bigger pool to draw from. I don't really SPAM Shadow Power; it's more for situations where I need to Strafe for awhile or obviously against Reflect Damage. For the most part, discipline is never a problem. I think the more critical thing is having a high enough DPS where Strafe is one-shotting everything except elites.

Multishot - Suppression Fire could also help if you are disc poor.