Flipping on AH

Posted by Member Bort on 6/23/13 02:15 PM #1
Posts: 551

I know AH is a big part of the game. And I wouldn't have gotten far without it.
But don't you guys think that flipping is hurting the game.

I mean... most of the items on AH is just bought and resold. Meaning the poor smo that actually wants to use an item has to pay through his ears to get anything good.

I think what they should do is make everything you buy on the AH account bound, but not permanently. It should become unbound if you played with it for at least 10 hours.

This way people would still be able to buy, use and sell... but they have to actually USE it first. Not just buy-sell-buy-sell-profit.

What do you guys think?
Posted by Member yoyo on 6/23/13 06:21 PM #2
Posts: 191

(full disclosure) As someone who has grossly benefited from flipping. I agree it has hurt the game. Its even bled over to the HC part of the game.

Honestly, I think this is what is going to make the console game better than pc. While I understand that you will never get the precise response you can from a keyboard and mouse. Just the removal of the Auction houses will bring back the D1/D2 flavor that so many people are complaining about. I also think this could be a positive for the pc game as well. If there is an extremely positive response to no AH on the consoles maybe they will get rid of the AH on the pc. I have played Diablo since the beginning and it has always been about grinding and treasure hunting. The next few months will be very interesting to see how things work out.
Posted by Member Bort on 6/23/13 11:38 PM #3
Posts: 551

But see.... that's my point. I don't think AH is a problem. I think its one of the best additions to the game.
I think flipping is the problem. So if they could solve only that it would mean we get the best of both worlds. Without the AH they would have to rework the drop system or game balance all over.

I would go so far as saying that I see flipping to be in the same class as botting. It hurts the gameplay of others.

Also, I'm not pretending I never flipped an item, because I have. I'm just saying that I deep down believe its really bad. And the more I play, the more it annoys me when people brag about their awesome flips. Not talking of anyone here. I have a guy on my friendlist that sends me daily brags of how many hundreds of millions he made by flipping.
Posted by Member zerokewl on 6/24/13 04:33 AM #4
Posts: 816

If they let us see completed auctions flippers would lose some market as people understood the true price of items
Posted by Member ecocd on 6/24/13 01:19 PM #5
Posts: 1059

Flipping could really only be eliminated by restricting the number of times an item could be sold on the AH before becoming Bind on Account or In-Game Trade Only. If an item could be sold on the AH, say, 3 times, its value decreases slightly after first sale, substantially after 2 sales and dramatically after 3 sales. People that just want equipment for playing the game would find affordable gear and there would still be some churn in the market.

The AH problems can really be traced back to the oversight that practically every player would be using it. There were many very simple ways to have kept it in check from release (see above), but they weren't prepared. They'll have a chance to make a wholesale change to the game and AH with the expansion coming 2014 or 2015 and we can only hope they take advantage of it.
Posted by Member nuhertz on 6/24/13 01:56 PM #6
Posts: 512

I personally like the auction house. I like the idea of being able to sell great items I find to other people for gold or real money, so that I can purchase the items I really want for my characters.

I like your bind on purchase idea, and the 10 hour play limit. It will discourage flippers. It would likely also punish people who want the best gear. I bought this great sword for X amount of gold, and tomorrow I found a better one for less. Now I have to play another 9 hours before I can recoup my purchase price?

Flipping on the auction house isn't the only problem. Another problem is that on softcore, there is no gear sink. In hardcore, at least the death of the character removes all the items from the game.

Bind on equip would solve a LOT of problems. Who cares what the price of an item is, or if someone has used an item, or flipped an item. Flippers will always flip, people with money (virtual or $) will always buy the best items, people will play as they wish. Removing the AH will make it harder to buy items, but there will certainly be trade forums and trade chat to allow it.

None are really perfect solutions. The best items should probably be linked to playing, similar to the way best in slot crafting receipes require Demonic Essences.....

I don't have any answers.

Posted by Member rimmi2002 on 6/24/13 07:59 PM #7
Posts: 22

Flipping has always been a part of diablo. In Diablo 2...it all happened in d2jsp and trade channel and only benfitted those who had ample time to sit on trade channels or forums all day.

Now it happens in game and a lot more people can use it. Basically anyone with a good sense of the game and some patience can become a good flipper. So removing it from the AH will only be a step backwards.
Posted by Member Bort on 6/24/13 11:18 PM #8
Posts: 551

@all thanks for the replies.

@rimmi2002 I don't agree. Yes it can be done by other means. But thousands of people will not flip using third party sites, that now do so on in-game AH. And all my suggestion is aiming at is making the AH get back to what it was created for, getting rid of excess items, and getting hold of good items to PLAY with.

Just because something was in Diablo 2 doesn't mean it's good. Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it should. Take botting and duping for example.



@nuhertz Yeah, it will basically cause you to have to play with an AH item for longer even though you might have bought/looted a better one. I guess that will really annoy people. But I still think flipping IS in fact a problem.



@ecocd The problem is the AH has such a negative connection to it at the moment that their big expansion update can real likely be to remove it from the game completely. And personally I would not have progressed very far without it, not to mention that I would never have been able to play HC.

Like I say.... AH GOOD. Buying just for the purpose of reselling... BAD.


Posted by Member douvinsky on 6/24/13 11:26 PM #9
Posts: 1445

Flipping happens naturally in an economy where imperfect knowledge exists (or when someone never check and put a buyout of 20m instead of 200m, or put a buyout of 100 gold at GAH instead of 100 dollars at RMAH). There is no perfect solution to this and it need not be one. The existence of 10 auction limit, limited inventory holding space and the 15% AH tax somehow curb the desire to conveniently flip every item for any amount of gold.
Posted by Member Bort on 6/25/13 12:02 AM #10
Posts: 551

@douvinksy spoken like a true flipper. ;)

All I'm saying is that a blind eye is turned to deliberate flippers, while botters gets banned when detected, and in my opinion both these hurt the enjoyment of others the same.
Posted by Member nuhertz on 6/25/13 08:12 AM #11
Posts: 512

There have been some discussions of an ironborn mode, and even ladders.

Both of those would freshen up the game. Ironborn only allowing self found, and a ladder providing a fresh economy. That ladder system is what kept D2 so great for so long.
Posted by Member hdvision on 6/25/13 11:14 AM #12
Posts: 83

Posted by douvinsky at 06/24/2013 11:26 PM

Flipping happens naturally in an economy where imperfect knowledge exists (or when someone never check and put a buyout of 20m instead of 200m, or put a buyout of 100 gold at GAH instead of 100 dollars at RMAH). There is no perfect solution to this and it need not be one. The existence of 10 auction limit, limited inventory holding space and the 15% AH tax somehow curb the desire to conveniently flip every item for any amount of gold.


I've done the "20m buy out instead of 200m" type of fail before. Never again.... I hope.
Posted by Member ecocd on 6/25/13 12:44 PM #13
Posts: 1059

Posted by nuhertz at 06/25/2013 08:12 AM

There have been some discussions of an ironborn mode, and even ladders.

Both of those would freshen up the game. Ironborn only allowing self found, and a ladder providing a fresh economy. That ladder system is what kept D2 so great for so long.

I'm not sold on ladder play unless there are some benefits to playing on the ladder. I can play with subpar equipment by choice right now and I'd never be one to try racing to p100 so there would have to be something in it for me. That could certainly include a RMAH assuming each account was allowed only 1 ladder character at a time to limit some of the botting traffic.

Does anyone remember the history of the ladder server in Diablo 2? Was it available on release? Was it implemented 4 years in? Regardless of when it was implemented, isn't the point of a sequel to improve upon the original rather than build back up to the original?

Second only to more stash space, more than anything in an expansion, I would like to see an incentive-laden ladder server system.
Posted by Member Bort on 6/25/13 01:25 PM #14
Posts: 551

Posted by hdvision at 06/25/2013 11:14 AM

I've done the "20m buy out instead of 200m" type of fail before. Never again.... I hope.


I have actually done it the other way around once. Priced something 10 times more than I intended too, and it still sold. Sadly it was a 10k to 100k mistake, noting in the millions.
Posted by Member douvinsky on 6/25/13 08:17 PM #15
Posts: 1445

Those with better AH knowledge tends to fair better. I just came across this paper about the effect of Opponents and Quasi-Endowment on online auctions. I am going to try putting up my str Vit trifecta ring this weekend for a low bid.

Auction Fever
Posted by Member Bort on 6/25/13 11:05 PM #16
Posts: 551

Posted by douvinsky at 06/25/2013 08:17 PM

Those with better AH knowledge tends to fair better.

Yes. But this is true for AH usage in general. Knowing when things are overpriced. Knowing a bargain. I'm not attacking the AH. I'm not saying it shouldn't be there. Heck, I love the AH. I'm attacking flipping. Where you never even intend to use an item. You simply buy it to enrich yourself by immediately selling it.

And I'm saying that if you are allowed to flip, I should be allowed to bot.

Actually, I can even take my argument to the absurd... botting is better for the game. Botting generates more items, making more randomly generated things available for other players so they can get further into the game. While flipping only makes the flipper rich. The original seller is no better off. The final user of an item has to pay a ton more to get an item to play with. The flipper benefits with NO contribution to the overall system.



Posted by douvinsky at 06/25/2013 08:17 PM

Auction Fever

Interesting paper. Started reading... but got bored halfway in. ;)
I think a lot of what applies here applies even more in Diablo 3. The fact that you are actually willing to pay more in the last second than earlier on in the Auction. And its related to the value of the increment. If in real life you have to up a bid by say $50 a shot, and you want to buy something at 300$, then actually paying 350$ is a massive overpay.

In diablo on the other hand, if an item costs 100m gold, and you have to overpay 100k it is actually a much smaller increment. But if you are willing to pay 100m, and you put that as your starting bid you are very likely to see the item go for just a smidge over 100m gold. Can't really put a number in, since I don't know how diablo calculates the next increment value. Something that I have just never wondered about.

Posted by Member nuhertz on 6/26/13 10:32 AM #17
Posts: 512

@Bort

There is one flaw in your arguement. You are arguing that every flipper makes a profit. I prefer to sell my items to flippers, for quicker sales, and not having to research prices. I always have 10 auctions up, and can clear more inventory with instant sales.

Who is to say that anyone who buys an item is able to sell it at a profit, or ever? Real winners? Gold coming out of the economy, or in the case of the RMAH, Blizzard.
Posted by Member Bort on 6/26/13 12:18 PM #18
Posts: 551

@nuhertz valid point. I is possible that many items are bought with the intent to flip, which are then never resold.

Guess I started this thread just because I was deep down annoyed that I suck at flipping. ;)

Posted by Member douvinsky on 6/26/13 07:18 PM #19
Posts: 1445

@nuhertz

I have a similar preference as you on quicker sales. I don't like seeing the AH message of auction unsold. So for most of my lower end "decent beginner rares", if the search for similar reveals a market "listing" price of 2m I would list it for 1m, then keep relisting it cheaper and cheaper if it is not sold, 500k, then 100k, then 50k. I won't even wait for the full 36 hours before I cancel the auction and relist them. If it doesn't sell for even 50k withing a couple of hours I would just salvage it, as I have a lot of items to list. I typically have 2 to 3 pages of auction sales per day.

Same for medium range legendaries. I always price mine such that it appears to be a top value of money in their class. My prediction (which now came true) is Hardcore items, except those top rolls, will get cheaper and cheaper after 1.08, and it is better to get rid of them fast and move on.

I don't know if at the end a flipper got it or a "user" got it. That's not my problem but I think the flipper would have a tough time waiting for sales at profit. Even if he can sell them at a profit the time opportunity cost has bite in, and this is a cost that I am certainly glad to pass on.
Posted by Member douvinsky on 6/27/13 02:40 AM #20
Posts: 1445

I checked my auctions of a few 1m rares. They were not sold for the past 12 hours despite being priced the cheapest of their similars.

I cancelled all of them and relisted them for 100k to 200k, and they were all sold within a couple of hours. Yay new spaces for fresh auctions!

I think for most fresh 60 they probably only have 1m+ from gold looted, hence 100-200k items would help them greatly to fully gear up. At the same time I don't think these decent items are worth flipping for veteran flippers, the profit is too small. However if people try to flip it to 200-500k (1m would be futile) and possibly waited a few days for sales, I am happy for them to be my distributors.

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8 users posted in this thread: Bort, douvinsky, ecocd, hdvision, nuhertz, rimmi2002, yoyo, zerokewl

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