Offhands - why is it that..

Posted by Member eleganthobo on 2/7/13 11:45 AM #1
Posts: 125

Having played all 5 classes to 60, i got to wondering about offhands - Why is it that WDs and Wizards have varied legendary offhands for different types of builds while DHs have just one uber legendary offhand... Seems more fun if there were some tradeoffs among quivers for the DH.. It's not that hard to imagine a quiver that focuses on attack speed and meshes with Calamities and another that focuses more on crit damage and manticores. Anyways, random rant/thought..
Posted by Member tsukiyomi on 2/7/13 12:24 PM #2
Posts: 118

In general I think there needs to be a much greater variety of items of all levels. There should be 10 or 15 items you could choose for each slot rather than having 1 or 2.
Posted by Member baccarat0809 on 2/7/13 12:39 PM #3
Posts: 376

One of the biggest - neigh, the biggest problem with this game is the items ~ of all kinds.

#1 - Item Properties
#2 - How an item adds "skill" points through intelligence
#3 - Lack of items - just not enough
#4 - Lack of item customization - how as a Barbarian you train with a Hammer as a weapon all your life, then find a sword that has better stats, so you pick-up that sword and are instantly as good with the sword as with a hammer (or axe, dagger, bow, etc).
#5 - Lack of requirements to use an item - example, how can a wizard effectively use an axe as well as a barbarian. Ok, maybe if the axe is this little, tiny thing, but when its one of the massive axes? huh? In a fight you're really gonna see a wizard using a large axe? Ok - monk - monks train to use their hands as killing weapons - they shouldn't even use weapons in the first place - however if you do that in this game it puts them at a HUGE disadvantage ...

Look - i love this game - and I like it even more that I can make a few bucks a day playing auction house tycoon (I don't know that I will EVER stop to be amazed that people are willing to pay good, hard-earned money for pixels !!!!! holy crapola - just plain old out and out amazing, but bottom line, is that IMO they could have done sooooo much more in the amount of time they had and they really, really turned out an inferior product that wasn't Beta tested anywhere near the level that it should have been.
Posted by Member shniggies on 2/7/13 12:52 PM #4
Posts: 909

i think its dumb how monks and barbs can essentially equip 2 main hand weapons, while everyone else is limited to an actual "off-hand"

Posted by Member ecocd on 2/7/13 01:57 PM #5
Posts: 1059

tl;dr DML has variety in the sense that the +skill bonuses on them are big enough to make it worthwhile to own multiple DML, but their 20% IAS cap dramatically limits the value of rare Quivers

Responding to the original point, I simply think Blizzard never seriously considered most of their ilvl 63 Legendaries that they ran out in a panic, particularly with Dead Man's Legacy. The thought process would be pretty straightforward:

Dev 1: Let's give it a higher max attack speed to make it special!
Dev 2: Yeah! But if it doesn't roll Crit Chance, no one will use it
Dev 1: Okay, add 9-10% CC, but it's also going to be really disappointing if it rolls without Dex
Dev 2: Okay, add 180 Dex, but it still feels just like a "good item" what if we add a skill roll and Hatred?
Dev 1: Glad that's done with, we've got a dozen more Legendaries to go through today...

Okay, so maybe not that last comment, the the previous 4 comments make logical sense for designing a cool quiver that people will want to use. I get that and without seriously sitting down and thinking about it, +20% attack speed instead of +15% attack speed doesn't seem like a big deal.

Once you do think about it, the problem become obvious. The 15% attack speed cap was there specifically so it would match the 15% attack speed bonus for dual-wielding. There was never supposed to be an inherent advantage for either 2H or dual 1H, but they broke the scale and killed whatever 1H market would've existed. They probably spent months balancing the damage on 2H XBows vs. 1H Xbows in development and some dude threw it all out the window with one single item affix decision. Whoops.

The other problem is that the only stats that really matter are Dex, Attack Speed and Critical Chance. DML guarantees great Dex, BiS Attack Speed and fantastic CC. It's not BiS Dex, but 5% IAS far outweighs +100 Dex 100% of the time.

All that said, the +skill modifier does provide some item variance. I have 3 DML in my stash for +14% Bola Shot, +13% Evasive Fire and +14% Hungering Arrow. While the item name itself is the same for each of my builds, they do provide a noticeable difference and hence some variety to the builds.

It also provides one of the most affordable uber items in Diablo 3. There's so little variation in the stats, that even a crappy +19% IAS DML is going to provide similar performance to the best +19% IAS DML. For the relative power it provides, DML is laughably cheap. This means that even a struggling clvl 60 DH player will get an enormous boost in dps for only 300k Gold.

If they had the chance to do it over, though, I feel they would've either capped the IAS at 17% and/or capped the CC at 8% exactly like the Black Bone Arrows. With both of those changes, you'd still find the rank-and-file DHs using them extensively, because they still guarantee great IAS, Dex, and CC, but there would still be plenty of justification for using a +230 Dex, +15% IAS, +10% CC rare Quiver.

To your point about the Calamity, though, it's not supposed to make sense to use a quiver with a 1H XBow! That shouldn't even be in the design space! A 1H XBow player should practically always find a second 1H XBow as a superior option to a quiver.

The Danetta's set weapons are a good example of a well-designed Legendary item. You can't get 400% CD or 1800 LoH, you have to choose. This means that a fantastic pair will give you 900 LoH, 300% CD and a nifty Set bonus. That's pretty fantastic, but it still leaves plenty of space for someone to choose to run 400% CD.

Manticore is another bone-headed design move, because it throws off the balance. The downside to a 2H XBow is (a) speed (b) +250% max CD (with Archery bonus). By making them possible to drop with 2 sockets, they now get +350% max CD which is only 50% less than the Dual wielders. Not only that, but they get the 10% CC from a quiver and +20% IAS from a DML. Manitcores may not be dominant on their own, but the combination with DML kill everything.

The only way to restore some semblance of balance is to break the limits on 1H XBows and give them +16% IAS and a Legendary 1H XBow that rolls up to 150% CD + socket. They almost made 1H XBows a viable choice with the change to Rubies, but wimped out on it at the last second when they nerfed the damage bonus. That was pretty disappointing, but I can understand not wanting to give Echoing Fury an even bigger advantage than it has now.
Posted by Member douvinsky on 2/7/13 04:57 PM #6
Posts: 1445

Posted by baccarat0809 at 02/07/2013 12:39 PM

example, how can a wizard effectively use an axe as well as a barbarian. Ok, maybe if the axe is this little, tiny thing, but when its one of the massive axes? huh? In a fight you're really gonna see a wizard using a large axe?

I got ya, big boy, come play with my Wizard. A little bit of SM won't hurt ya, I would be gentle when I swing that big Genzaniku.

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6 users posted in this thread: baccarat0809, douvinsky, ecocd, eleganthobo, shniggies, tsukiyomi

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